What role does metabolism play in cancer?
Is cancer driven by DNA errors or sick mitochondria? Which is causal?
Today we discuss this with Maggie and Brad Jones. After Maggie was diagnosed with terminal cancer with a prognosis of less than a year, she dedicated herself to a new, healing lifestyle. Instead of dying, she is cancer free years out. She is now a certified nutritionist and cancer coach advocating the same nutrition, metabolic and lifestyle therapies that saved her life. Maggie and Brad are producing a new documentary on the science behind the metabolic theory of cancer with leading experts in the field: CancerEvolution.
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Robert Lufkin 0:01
Welcome back to the health longevity secrets show and I’m your host, Dr. Robert Lufkin. What role does metabolism play in cancer is cancer driven by DNA errors or sick mitochondria, which is causal. Today we discuss this with Maggie and Brad Jones. After Maggie was diagnosed with terminal cancer with a prognosis of less than a year, she dedicated herself to a new healing lifestyle. Instead of dying, she has cancer free years out. She’s now a certified nutritionist and Career Coach advocating the same nutrition, metabolic and lifestyle therapies that helped save her life. She is now producing a new documentary with her husband entitled cancer evolution about the role metabolism plays in cancer. Here’s the trailer.
Unknown Speaker 1:03
It’s very interesting watching scientific theories come and go, especially with regard to cancer because it’s such an emotionally charged subject.
Unknown Speaker 1:16
almost 100 years ago, in the 1930s, altered metabolism was most of what we knew about cancer.
Unknown Speaker 1:22
But when Watson and Crick discovered DNA, this really drew a line,
Unknown Speaker 1:25
it was a massive paradigm shift
Unknown Speaker 1:27
and everything went out the window. We wanted to do the old boring stuff, it just seems so much more interesting to get into the code get into the DNA,
Unknown Speaker 1:35
the theory of cancer was now that we have all of these genes within us that are the seeds for cancer to develop.
Unknown Speaker 1:41
A lot of cancer researchers got sidetracked. It’s very seductive
Unknown Speaker 1:45
theoretical template that you go from these mutations, you design targeted drugs to hit these mutations. And this leads to cancer therapies
Unknown Speaker 1:53
has it made a difference in terms of personalized medicine and targeted therapies? No, as much as people think.
Unknown Speaker 2:04
Now, people have returned to this idea of metabolism being important, because the research just has become more and more eliminating certain
Unknown Speaker 2:13
kinds of being the product of genetic damage. We think the genetic damage is self inflicted.
Unknown Speaker 2:19
It’s interesting, because cancer biology was so far off in the genetics. And now you see this shift.
Unknown Speaker 2:29
These ideas have been around, but nobody’s seen them connected the dots.
Unknown Speaker 2:34
When you start looking deeper into this, there are some cancer cells that have no genetic mutations. The goal of cancer therapies is to kill the tumor before you kill the patient. The hospitals benefit, doctors benefit from it, the pharmaceutical companies benefit. It’s a huge money revenue generation system. As I often say, the problem with science is it’s done
Unknown Speaker 2:55
by human beings. How does evolution fit into this picture?
Unknown Speaker 3:00
There is an alternative. How come nobody’s telling you about these alternatives. We don’t have a good understanding of what cancer is.
Unknown Speaker 3:07
We’re still really early in this story.
Robert Lufkin 3:16
And now, please enjoy this interview with Maggie and Brad Jones. Hi, Maggie and Brad, welcome to the show.
Maggie Jones 3:27
Hi, thank you so much for having us. We’ve been fans for a long time. Yes. Thanks for having us.
Robert Lufkin 3:31
Oh, I can’t wait to dive into some of the fascinating things we’re gonna talk about today like the metabolic basis of cancer. But before we do, let’s, let’s set the stage with your stories and how you got here.
Maggie Jones 3:49
Excellent. I think some of your viewers may be familiar with my story. A week before I turned 40 Brett and I moved to Hong Kong we’d never been to Asia before. And exactly one month later, I was diagnosed with stage four cancer. It was lung cancer, the primary tumor in my left lower lobe, but it has spread everywhere by then. Within a couple of months, I had four tumors in my brain when of my liver to my right eye and dozens throughout my lymph nodes, my neck, throat, abdomen, just a mess. I was given six to eight months to live and that felt optimistic. At the time, we were on oxygen at home brought down the system. I couldn’t walk up the stairs of the bus. I thought I’d never see the ending to Game of Thrones. Sometimes I wish I hadn’t. But the first week, I was ready to die. All I wanted was to be a good patient to make Brad proud of me to make my doctors proud of me. That thankfully lasted about five days. I was diagnosed on a Monday and that following weekend I started reading about you know five fasting the metabolic theory of cancer And I started my very first fast that Sunday, less than a week after I was diagnosed, and things got better, and they got better really fast. And I know I was incredibly lucky and I had was able to take targeted therapy, I did some conventional radiation therapy to my brain. But I got better faster than any of my doctors expected
Brad Jones 5:21
that your doctors expected you to get better, exactly,
Maggie Jones 5:24
or have any quality of life, but my breathing improves my ability to walk improved. And it was one year later, exactly one year later, for my diagnosis that I was found no evidence of disease. And that was over two years ago, and I’ve been cancer free ever since I get my scans every three months or so. I do unfortunately have four lesions in my brain from my previous brain radiation surgery as radiation necrosis mostly causes me aphasia, which you’ll hear more speaking, my speaking is a little bit awkward. It’s not as good as it used to be. But my gosh, what a small price to pay for having these last three years and having them pay so amazing. Yeah, actually.
Brad Jones 6:03
I mean, we joke, obviously, it’s, you know, just humorous to everyone, but that Maggie has recovered from cancer, basically, I mean, obviously, there’s still that, that risk, everyone has a little bit, you know, floating around, but what she’s dealing with now are the the effects from the treatment, right, the brain radiation, that’s the big, the big thing right now that she’s got swelling in her brain. And, you know, they’re just trying to manage that. And there’s not a lot of protocols for that there’s not a lot of people that actually, you know, make it through cancer, and then, you know, go on to like, have to deal with this brain necrosis. And that’s a
Maggie Jones 6:38
lot of it. And I, gosh, I’ve had to fight with nine different practitioners. Now, on your oncologist, neurosurgeons neurologist about what’s in my brain, because the first time they automatically assumed it was another tumor cancers back, you’re gonna die again, get more radiation. And my gosh, if I’d done that, there’s no question in my mind, I would be dead. So I thought I got scans out of my own pocket, I saw other doctors and finally got the paperwork, confirming that this is Brain radiation to process do not give more radiation. And every year since then, I’m still getting diagnoses of oh my gosh, it looks like the cancers back Oh, wait, it’s not actually is radiation necrosis. And some of the treatments I’ve been able to take advantage of which have also been good for cancer are things like hyperbaric oxygen therapy, which when I first came and started doing that my doctors were so almost angrily opposed. But now my last two meetings with my primary neuro oncologists have been them encouraging me to do more, the actual recommendation is try to double your amounts of hyperbaric oxygen therapy, I gotta
Brad Jones 7:39
say that, that feels really good to see at least one doctor that we’re kind of nudging him a little bit. And, you know, just, you know, it’s been very difficult to get, you know, doctors to understand what Maggie’s doing. And you know, the approach he’s taking, and most of them just kind of go along with it. Because it’s like, it’s diet. It’s H bod. It’s like, well, how is oxygen and food? Okay, you know, but yeah, we do have one doctor, oncologists that’s sort of like, alright, well, that age pot seems to be doing something. So, yeah.
Maggie Jones 8:07
Yeah, no, no doctors intentionally trying to do a poor job, they’re doing the best they can with the information that they have. And so I really admire the ones who are willing to say that they were wrong or willing to grow and evolve with the science. And I think that’s what’s lacking from a lot of cancer treatments is willingness to incorporate new ideas, AI, so much evidence is coming out to support the metabolic theory of cancer, but it just hasn’t caught on yet. We don’t have these great looking pharmaceutical reps coming around, you know, giving doctors great incentives to recommend things like fasting. There’s no, you know, hardcore. Yeah, well,
Brad Jones 8:43
I was actually talking with somebody on social media recently, just a little back and forth. And in they were basically, you know, why is this? Why is it so bad? And it’s like, well, the system is actually working the way it’s designed. It’s like, it’s incentivized incentivizes profits, you know, it’s, you know, it’s like, you’re not going to get a new drug that comes out that doesn’t make any money, even if it’s, you know, fairly miraculous, you know, it’s gonna be impossible, either through the trials process, because it’s just so expensive. So we, I don’t know, that’s one of the things that now united sort of are trying to advocate for is like, you know, just for this grassroots, you know, we kind of have to change the system. So I mostly
Maggie Jones 9:20
listen, probably understand that it can cost $1.2 billion to get a drug or treatment FDA approved, and oh, there’s no profit in the drug. If it’s something like fasting, there’s no potential to recoup those costs. So again, it’s not anyone being a bad person. They’re just working within the confines of the system. So just to finish my
Brad Jones 9:39
review, yeah, you know, as much
Robert Lufkin 9:41
No. Yeah. That’s a That’s a remarkable, wonderful story. And just just to summarize for our listeners, to be clear, when you said you had no evidence of disease that that means there’s there’s no evidence and we’ll keep looking continue looking for disease, but there’s there’s no more evidence of cancer. And, and as you said, those those lesions in your brain were not the result of the they’re not cancer, but they’re they’re, they’re burns essentially from the radiation therapy. But that doesn’t mean that you have cancer, it’s just a, a, something of so as a you are you are basically without cancer when you were told that you you had a year to live and, and and also to be very clear, for people listening to this, as this is not medical advice, as we’ll say at the end again, of course. And also, in your particular case, you did follow the recommendations of radiation therapy and chemotherapy. So you were not saying don’t do anything for cancer except a particular diet or something. It may it may work in some cases or may come to that. But right now, it’s probably We’re not advocating that and more work needs to be done. But
Brad Jones 11:08
no, I wouldn’t say that. But what you do, what we do tell people to do is you need to be your own advocate, right? Like if Maggie would have done exactly what our doctor said, she would had more radiation on top of the brain necrosis, which is actually the exact wrong type of thing that you want to do for brain necrosis, it would have led to more dead tissue in her brain, and she would have gone downhill even faster. So yeah, one of the things we’re certainly we’re not doctors, we’re not advocating, you know, like, you know, cancer, but we do say, you know, gosh, you gotta, you know, you kind of have to take charge, don’t just like, listen to every little thing your doctor says is like the gospel truth.
Maggie Jones 11:49
Make mistakes today, and incorporate that with your own experience published research and make an informed decision not to just make it informed.
Robert Lufkin 11:56
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Now, now, look, let’s, let’s talk a little bit about about cancer and, and the theory of it, and these remarkable changes that are occurring in our understanding of what causes cancer. I mean, when I went to medical school, and and still, I think the prevailing accepted theory is that cancer is, is the sort of the somatic mutation theory, which basically means that it’s based on molecular biology and DNA mutations as the as the cause, the cause effect of of, of cancer. And and maybe you could talk about that a little bit. Yeah.
Maggie Jones 12:41
Using that function. Let me just start from the the story side. Okay. Sure. Yeah, when I. So I found this out slowly. And my first instinct is somebody who’s under 40, nonsmoker, stage four, lung cancer was well as just unlucky. And I’ve had that reinforced by a lot of people saying, Oh, these random genetic mutations, you’re just an unlucky person. But all the research that I’ve been doing, there’s starting to be published, that it’s not the somatic mutation. It’s not these random mutations in your body, there’s something more core and fundamental. And I’ll pass the bat in one second. But one thing that’s really amazed me is that we have cancer, which is so many different diseases, but they all have these similar attributes, these hallmarks of cancer based on the research of Robert Weinberg in hand, and that kind of hand. So they all had these common traits. And if it were random mutations, why would all these and we’re talking over 10,000 mutations in one humans cancer caused the same trips?
Brad Jones 13:42
Yeah, yeah, just to simplify what we’re talking about, like the somatic mutation theory, it’s just you’re just when your genes and your cell divides, the idea is that the genes when you make one cell out of another cell, it doesn’t quite do it quite right. There’s a little mistake made, right. And so now you have a bad cell, and then that bad cell multiplies, right. That’s the sort of simplest way to to describe that. And, yeah, what the metabolic theory of cancer is basically that there might be something that happens before that there might be something where the energy that the cell needs to survive is having trouble the mitochondria, they send a signal to the nucleus saying, Hey, we’re having trouble. And that causes the DNA to change a little bit. It’s actually the gene expression that changes. And so that’s a lot of the, the metabolic theory and the genetic theory actually overlap. It’s kind of just a question of what is the root cause of cancer? And so yeah, like Maggie saying, if you if you subscribe to this theory that cancer is just this sort of random genetic change. Most cancers would just look very different because they would just be you know, all kinds of different genes getting turned on and off. But the cancer actually most cancers actually go through a pretty strategic, you know, switching on and switching off of certain genes. So that if you know, somebody on one continent gets lung cancer and somebody on another continent of a different sex gets lung cancer, those two cancers look very, very similar
Maggie Jones 15:13
in their presentation in their symptoms, maybe not necessarily in the genes that are affected, or the mutations that are
Brad Jones 15:19
affected. Sometimes even in that, yeah, yeah. And nobody doubts
Maggie Jones 15:22
that there are genetic mutations in cancers. It’s just a question of are they caused? Are they the cause of cancer? Or are they the result of some more deep rooted fundamental causes.
Brad Jones 15:33
And by the way, I just want to add that we’re not, we’re not experts on this, but we are Jr. Making the documentary, we have just talked to dozens of people about this. And so you’re kind of getting this secondhand knowledge from, you know, everything that we have soaked up. And then every day we’re, you know, talking to people writing emails, I’m cutting the film about it. So I’m like, you know, I have to know it and understand it to be able to present it to people. So just don’t want to, I don’t want you to think that we are scientists. But that’s where that’s where we’re coming from.
Robert Lufkin 16:03
But we appreciate it. Yeah, we we appreciate that. And, and the day of the city citizen scientist has arrived, you know, with Gary Taubes, and you know, and many, many others onward. That, you know, citizen scientists play a role in moving the science forward in our understanding, and as you said, even the experts don’t get it right. And don’t even agree on these things. And, and one thing I’m hearing you say, is, going back to something we’ve we’ve we keep hearing, it’s, it’s about causality in our understanding of diseases and chronic disease, and all these things, and it’s causality. And I just want to underscore that a little bit in it’s like, wrinkles, right? Wrinkles are associated with aging, you know, I’m in Los Angeles. But they’re not causal for aging, right? And if if I make the wrinkles go away with some Botox, it doesn’t affect the underlying aging. And what what you’re saying is that we’re not saying that DNA mutations don’t occur with cancer, we’re just saying that they’re not causal. And I think I think there was with the, what was it? I think the the Cancer Genome Project, are you familiar with that in 2006, that was an interesting thing to sort of another kind of nail in the coffin of this. Yeah.
Maggie Jones 17:36
And I’ll even talk a little bit about that. So like you say, we announced this after on the heels of the Human Genome Project, and that is all been mapped, we now have the Cancer Genome Atlas, which is now we’re gonna map cancer, and started with a handful of tumors. And too many people surprised, instead of finding maybe, you know, six to eight different mutations that cause cancer, we found 10s of 1000s. And even more shocking within the same tumor, we have this heterogeneous head orogeny, sorry, where we see one tumor can have multiple, multiple different genetic mutations. So it really begs the question, is it actually one or you know, a couple of mutations or combination of mutations that cause these common symptoms of cancer? Are they the downstream effects? Like you say,
Brad Jones 18:23
yeah, they are. By doing that genetic Atlas would be like, Oh, lung cancer, it’s these five genes or these four genes. And you know, like, yeah, glioblastoma, yeah, it’s this these 10 genes. And it’s nothing like that. I mean, you could have a cancer in your long that has certain mutations on one side of the tumor and different mutations on the other from cell to cell within the same tumor different mutations. So there was just so much complexity that they just weren’t able to do what they thought they would be able to do with that project.
Maggie Jones 18:54
And it’s not to say there hasn’t been any advancement. Because of that we have what many people are familiar with targeted therapies that come out. So for example, I’m very fortunate to have the Raz one positive mutation, which occurs in about 1% of lung cancer cases. And for this, I am fortunate enough to be able to take targeted therapy. I don’t take it anymore, but it cost me about 24,000 US dollars per month. And there was recently a study released last year in 2021. Showing that all these great advancements, these targeted therapies may prove quality of life somewhat, but they only extend life by 2.4 months as an average. So we started back but 10 years ago with one great success Gleevec for lymphoma, I’m sorry, no, yeah. And that’s the standard like, Oh, this is what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna target these genes. But here we are, where I can pay a fortune to treat 1% of lung cancer and get 2.4 more months of life. That doesn’t cost my family
Brad Jones 19:52
hasn’t been another success and other simple drug like Gleevec, it was just it’s kind of a one off. I mean, the bar is Pretty low with these drugs where it’s like, you just have to reduce the tumor size a little bit. And I had, we had one of the people that we talked to was like, now if you went in and talk to your doctor, and he’s like, we’re gonna go in, we’re gonna do this awesome surgery, we’re gonna wipe out 40% of the tumor, would you be excited for that surgery? You know, but that’s pretty much what these chemotherapy drugs do, you know, so it’s kind of like, and then once you get resistance to that, you know, your tumor changes, the cancer changes, you know, then it’s like, okay, well, you know, you wiped out a few cells on one side of the tumor, but you know, there’s a big chunk of the tumor left. And then there are people like Maggie, who, you know, can maybe, you know, take a targeted therapy, and it can be really helpful. So
Maggie Jones 20:44
well, there are published studies showing that some of the metabolic therapies that we’re talking about, like ketogenic diet fasting, actually do improve the efficacy of these targeted therapies. So TKI is what I take. It’s a tyrosine kinase inhibitor. And just loads of research mounting now like that is what will make it last, that’s going to help you so much. And yet, again, there’s no marketing, there’s no real way of getting this to people. And so most of my doctors that I’ve seen, have been very, very opposed to it, but they can’t explain why I’ve been able to have the results that I’ve had, and it’s going to change, I know it’s going to change.
Robert Lufkin 21:19
Yeah, yeah. So that a couple more nails in the coffin of this of the DNA theory as being causal in cancer, at least for the majority of cancers. While Well, as you say, oncogenes have been discovered with great fanfare many years ago, and this was the solution to cancer. And they are seen in a few cancers, they’re, they’re relatively uncommon, and most cancers have very heterogeneous type genetic mutations, varying widely, even within the same tumor, the same met metastasis and everything. And then on top of that, is, as you say, the striking failure to develop really widespread effective cancer treatment. So there have been a few, you know, outstanding successes. But by and large, we’re still giving radiation and chemotherapy that we gave 40 years ago. So this makes us all question the DNA theory of somatic mutations, DNA being damaged, and that creates the cancer. We know that carcinogens damage DNA, and we know that damage DNA is present in cancer, but it may not be causal. And this, this is the evidence to it. So Oh, yeah, go ahead.
Brad Jones 22:41
I’m just gonna say like, the one analogy is like, it’s like, you got a problem with your car. And so what we’re going to we’re doing with this, like DNA theory is like, we’re going down to like the molecular level of the gasoline to try and find out what’s wrong with your car. It’s just, that’s not what’s good. That’s not what we need to do to solve this disease. Right. In forest for the trees. Yeah, the forest for the trees. Yes, yeah. nail in the coffin. Do you want to talk about the the nuclear transfer experiments?
Robert Lufkin 23:12
Have you heard that? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Brad Jones 23:15
He likes this. This experiment I’m talking about
Maggie Jones 23:17
for me, when I was doing my personal research into the metabolic therapy, this was worth pursuing. For me. The one thing that really convinced me were these nuclear transfer experiments. So I read about them and Dr. Thomas Seyfried book, the cancer as a metabolic disease, where he eliminated these experiments that have taken place, I think, since 1980s, and have been repeated over and over and over. The two that struck me most is you take two cells, obviously, you have the cytoplasm, which contains the mitochondria, the powerhouse of the cell, and the place where metabolic disease would really be manifested. And the nucleus which contains most of the DNA. So if you transfer the nucleus of a cancerous cell, which contains this DNA that supposedly is the cause of cancer, to an otherwise healthy cell, that cell remains healthy, it has healthy mitochondria. And you can actually, in one experiment, they cloned tadpoles, healthy tadpoles from this. On the other hand, if you have a cancerous cell with cancer, you can take the cytoplasm with this cancerous mitochondria, put it in an otherwise healthy cell, and that cell will develop cancer. And so for me, it just makes so much sense that yes, the seeds of cancer in the mitochondria, they’re in this metabolic aperture.
Robert Lufkin 24:30
Yeah. Right. Well, yeah, that perfect that sets the stage now if if so, if the the nucleus and it’s containing the DNA is not causal in cancer, it’s something in the cytoplasm. Tell us what that could be. What What have you found out about that?
Brad Jones 24:52
Yeah, well, so I mean, one of the things that you know, we’re we’re just doing in our documentary is we’re telling the history of this metaphor. theory of cancer. So we start with auto Warburg German scientist and the discoveries that he made where when a cell turns cancerous it has this shift in the what it needs for energy it shifts from respiration, which uses mostly oxygen to fermentation, which burns sugar or glucose.
Maggie Jones 25:21
And quick context. This was 100 years ago, Warburg started setting cancer in the 1920s, he actually won a Nobel Prize for some of his research, he was considered one of the greatest scientists on our planet.
Brad Jones 25:34
Yeah, 1923 was this cancer research in 1931 was a Nobel Prize for mitochondria. Scott discovering how mitochondria work. And so yeah, so and so what kind of happened is that soon after this, like in the 40s, Watson and Crick discovered the structure of DNA, and kind of everything that had been done up to that point just kind of fell by the wayside. Everyone was like, oh, DNA, that’s, I mean, that’s like the blueprint for everything that the body makes everything that it constructs. That’s, that’s cancer. That’s where cancer is coming from. And some of this research just really was, I wouldn’t say it was lost, because we, you know, it’s still around, but I mean, it was just just left, you know, kind of left for dead. It
Maggie Jones 26:19
was disregarded, I would say, and a lot of the great scientists, they wanted to study DNA was sexy was hot. I mean, think about the 50s and the 60s, who wanted to do this biochemical research. And yet, thanks to some real, I don’t know, incredible researchers like Pete Peterson from Johns Hopkins, followed by Thomas Seyfried, they brought back and they resurrected these experiments that have been done in the past and really prove that is the cause. And to me, it breaks my heart that we’ve lost so much time while we are going down this rabbit hole of DNA, which, you know, is amazing and has its own benefits. But it’s not the root cause and it, there are a lot of lives that I think could have been extended or improved if we’d had this research earlier. And so now we
Robert Lufkin 27:04
know the whole story of Otto Warburg, I want to reference Sam apples book. It’s ravenous. He’s on your I mean, your documentary and he tells a great story. So Otto Warburg, and what a colorful man, sort of an enigma of a man that he was, I think he, he was he was a Nazi Germany’s great one of their greatest scientists. And yet he was Jewish and relatively openly homosexual at a time when that was very dangerous yet, you know, Hitler wanted him to find a cure for cancer, and you’re kept him around.
Brad Jones 27:45
Yeah, just so full of his own self that he didn’t he just thought that, you know, they would, you know, see, see the wisdom and go along with them the whole and the end. Just I just amazingly, they did. Yeah,
Robert Lufkin 27:59
I love it. I love the quote, when he won his Nobel Prize when they called him up and told him that he won the prize. His response was, Well, it’s about time.
Brad Jones 28:13
Yeah, he was nominated two other times for two completely different lines of work, which that’s, to this day, still unparalleled. There’s no one that’s been nominated for three Nobel Prizes for three completely different studies. So yeah, he
Maggie Jones 28:31
gave his final speech in the 1970s, at the Nobel laureate Summit, to return to this metabolic theory. And he spoke about how he still believed that this was a root of cancer, and was sadly completely disregarded and even critical, killed to a certain extent. Yeah.
Brad Jones 28:46
And there’s, I mean, to be fair, I mean, there have been advancements in the theory that he came up with, you know, in the 30s. I mean, one of the things that Warburg thought was that there, the mitochondria completely stopped on, you know, using any kind of oxygen and doing any kind of energy creation. And that was something that in the, I believe it was the 70s, Pete Peterson, you know, like research, maybe the 80s, you know, found out that there still is actually a lot of activity going on, they don’t do a complete shift from respiration to fermentation. So, there’s some, there’s, there’s, you know, some, some issues or some, you know, it’s not 100% You know, the Warburg theory, but it explains a lot.
Robert Lufkin 29:30
It’s an interesting shift. You mentioned going from from German science in German was domme Germany was dominant in science before world war two and then after World War Two sort of shift to the United States in English and a lot of the German science was discarded or was was minimize the sciences spread out all over. And then and then the fact of the DNA and molecular biology as being an appealing symbol solution that people thought would have all the answers for everything and the study of metabolism, you know, fell by the wayside. And he started to mention some of the people that that revived it and brought it back. What? How did how did that happen? And how did we how do we get from there to where we are today?
Maggie Jones 30:22
I think it started slow, but it’s accelerating quickly. And Dr. Pete Peterson, again at John Hopkins, I think is the one who is credited the most with keeping this auto Arbor torch burning throughout the 1980s. And then his research, along with many others was picked up by Dr. Thomas Seyfried at Boston College, who wrote the book cancer as a metabolic disease in I think it was 2005. So still fairly recently, it’s a dense read, but there are some summaries of it on Amazon or wherever you buy books.
Brad Jones 30:52
We’re also very partial to Travis Kristofferson sort of has a verb, he sort of has a layman’s version of it called tripping over the truth, if we really liked that book.
Robert Lufkin 31:00
Great book, I’ll plug it here if if bucks creative, you can see it there. But yeah, highly recommended. It’s very readable, yet has technical detail as well, it’s so to Sam’s book. And, you know, I can’t say enough good things about both of those.
Brad Jones 31:16
It’s really hard to Yeah. Metabolic theory of cancer without getting a little into the science, so. But yeah, when we first you know, talk to people actually, one of the things that, you know, because maybe he still does, occasionally some counseling, or one of the things that you know, in podcast is just, even if you don’t believe or understand the metabolic theory of cancer, you can still take advantage of the therapies that are based on it, right ketogenic diets. It’s an off label drugs, this these kind of thing, I don’t know if we’ll probably get to this. But you know, just this idea that, you know, it’s like, even if you’re not a science geek, and you, this doesn’t really mean anything to you, you don’t have to buy into it, or even or understand it to like to take advantage of it.
Maggie Jones 32:03
And even before we get into that, some contacts that I should have heard it before. But we got so excited, just what does the metabolic theory of cancer mean? And so when I first started doing my research back, when I was first diagnosed, I was working full time I was doing conventional treatment, I wasn’t feeling great, but still reading everything I could. And what I learned to understand is that the most common form of energy production in our body is oxidative phosphorylation. And this is where it’s actually a step after fermentation. So fermentation is the most simple way that a cell can create energy. And it’s very common in single celled organisms. And in this case, their body uses just glucose, and it takes in this glucose, and it does the fermentation within the cytoplasm of the cells and will create two ATP, ATP being the basis basic unit of energy. That’s oxidative phosphorylation, these two ATP and some of the byproducts like lactic acid will actually go into the mitochondria and be converted into 32. There’s actually a range but on average, 32 ATP, so you’re looking at fermentation from just glucose being to ATP compared to oxidative phosphorylation, which uses oxygen as opposed to fermentation to create 16 times as much energy. And what Warburg discovered is that cancer cells actually use this fermentation this very inefficient form of energy production, as opposed to oxidative for possible realization, even in the presence of oxygen. And so the big question was why, and a big thing that stuck with me is, well, obviously, glucose is a highly preferred fuel for cancer. Now, obviously, there’s been research and there’s no question that cancer can adapt and use other fuels, but it doesn’t have the same metabolic flexibility as the healthy human cell. So this is especially demonstrated in PET scans. And I always say that, you know, theories are only proven by the technology that they demonstrate, we can actually use it. And when I get a PET scan, the first step is to drink this radioactive glucose solution. And this is a glucose molecule that has had a radioactive tracer added to it sit very still for about an hour, and all that glucose goes to all my tumors, and then they can be scanned in a PET scanner or CT scanner. And that’s just a fact like, cancer absorbs glucose. And in fact, the leader of stage that you’re in for your cancer, the more likely it is to hunger for this glucose. And we’re talking 70 to 80 or more percent of late stage cancers having this impact. So to me, there’s no question my cancer wants glucose to survive, I’m going to deny it. And then of course, we do get into a lot of complexity where like I said, your cancer cells can shift. And I used to fight with people all the time when I had less than a year to live saying, well, this isn’t going to cure your cancer. I don’t care if I get two more years living this wonderful life and being as healthy as I feel. I’ll take Two years. And luckily for me, I actually did end up becoming cancer free. And I have zero regrets. And I think that’s something that people forget is that there are real human beings who need these treatments that can all be used in conjunction with conventional treatment, but can really extend quality of life, they can improve the side effects of your conventional treatment, and they can extend the time you have to be alive. Okay, that’s my little soapbox.
Robert Lufkin 35:28
Yeah, no, that that’s, that’s great. And just underscore so glucose utilization, as seen by these PET scans, and everything else is a hallmark of cancer. That’s what cancers do they utilize glucose? And then, as you say, what? Excuse me, not COVID. What Otto Warburg discovered was that of the two pathways of glucose utilization, either the the primary official and oxidative phosphorylation to 32, ATP, or fermentation, which is inefficient only to ATP, for some reason, cancers use this inefficient fermentation pathway. And the idea is that something is damaged in their mitochondria so that they can’t do the oxidative phosphorylation, and they have to do fermentation. And that’s the idea then behind the metabolic theory, and the question then becomes, then the mitochondrial damage, the metabolic damage is primary and causal. It’s upstream of everything else. And that’s what causes the the DNA mutations are downstream, and they don’t really are not consistent. But the mitochondrial damage is consistent. And this, this implementation pathway appears to occur in in most, if not all, all cancers. Do you want to talk about the other fermentation? Yeah, about the amino acid fermentation at this point. And since we’re right on that,
Maggie Jones 37:12
one of the more recent develops this metabolic theory of cancer because as Brad mentioned, Warburg 100 years ago, didn’t have everything right, obviously science evolves is that there are other advantages to a cancer cell using this inefficient fermentation method of energy generation. And that’s a creation of lactic acid and glutamine and glutamine, which is a arguably semi conditional sorry, essential amino acid meaning your body can create it, but may not create it in large enough quantities that your money beads, so it needs to be dietarily ingested. This glutamine is a building block for the tumors themselves. So to create a tumor you not don’t just need energy, you need the the bricks master mass, that’s what I’m looking for. And glutamine can provide that. So there are a lot of arguments out there. Also that will unique glutamine your body does need it for its immune system, and most importantly for cancer patients, but also a lot of other critical systems. So you can’t always deprive your body of glutamine, but obviously cancer wants it and it needs it to grow. So some researchers, I’m thinking specifically of Dr. Thomas Seyfried at Boston College are looking at glutamine inhibitors as a next generation of metabolic treatments, where you can just pulse them so that your body can recover. But then again, you deprive the cancer of that glutamine. And then some of the other side effects of fermentation are a buildup of lactic acid, which really is an inflammatory marker. And inflammation, as we know, is also one of those hallmarks of cancer defined by about Robert Weinberg and Doug Hanahan, back in 2001. And it’s not good for cancer. And that can contribute to things like hypoxia, where your cells don’t get enough oxygen. And all these things just come together and have these eight hallmarks of cancer that we’re talking about. Dr. Adrian’s shack in Arizona has shown how I think five of them now are directly correlated to the metabolic theory. So although there were developed to explain what’s similar in all cancers, based on the somatic or genetic theory of cancer, we’re now showing they’re actually results of this Metabolic theory, this mitochondrial damage,
Brad Jones 39:26
just to finish up that lactic acid story. The idea is that cancer cells spit out it really is it’s like an acid. And it hurts cancer cells too, but it hurts them less than the other surrounding normal cells. So one of the one of the analogies that we got from from Dr. Jason Fung, he was like, hey, in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king, and that’s what he said. He’s like cancer cells. If they just have one eye then they’re better than all the normal cells. So yeah, yeah. Excuse me,
Maggie Jones 40:00
your listeners will be familiar with lactic acid. It’s the same thing that your muscles create when you push them to failure that is Dream burning. Because you’re
Brad Jones 40:07
using your when you run a sprint or you do some kind of exercise and you feel that pain in your muscle, it’s because your muscle converted from using burning oxygen to burning glucose and your cells spit out lactic acid, and that lactic acid is what makes you hurt.
Robert Lufkin 40:24
Yeah, that’s a good point, people understand it. So the oxidative phosphorylation uses oxygen to to generate all the ATP and burn up the glucose. Fermentation is called anaerobic because it doesn’t require oxygen. And when we’re exercising, and we use up all the oxygen, and we still need to run faster, then we switch to anaerobic metabolism and the lactic acid, as you say, builds up there. I just want to plug Jason bones book to hear the answer to another great one. These are all such good books. And he’s not he’s in your documentary too, as well. Right. So we get to, we get to hear from them. But before we before we talk about the documentary, what one last thing I wanted to just sort of wrapped wrap around. So we’ve we’ve talked about the DNA damage theory and the the problems with it, and why it’s it hasn’t proved to be causal in the great majority of cancer cases and why there’s this growing evidence that damaged mitochondria, metabolic abnormalities may be primary and everything else is downstream. So what are the approaches that one could take or that you took for how do you how do you address metabolic health in whether whether I have cancer or not? What are what are the metabolic things and specifically if one does have cancer,
Maggie Jones 41:57
so let me talk about what I discovered with my cancer and then break and talk about how it affects the wider population. And just general metabolic health which is the root of so many, so many diseases in the Western world and everywhere. So again, Sunday, after my Monday diagnosis, I started my first fast, and this deprived nutrients from my body. It also encourages autophagy, which is the organized cell death, which is a very healthy thing for your body, these cells get old, you don’t want that anymore. So fasting is amazing. It also deprives your body of glucose of any dietary glutamine. And it’s a great start. It’s something that we still depend on. I fast every Sunday night to Tuesday night bread too. And we also fast for about three to five days, the first week of the month. So we’re actually on day two of our fast right now. This is Tuesday. We haven’t eaten since Sunday.
Unknown Speaker 42:51
Maggie Jones 42:54
The ketogenic diet. And this is something that I stuck to completely my first year of cancer and now do a little bit off and on alternating with a whole foods plant based diet. Brad is really committed to keto, but it’s different for each individual based on their genetics and based on their hormones. But for that, it removes all sugar and most importantly, to meat, processed foods, seed oils, these foods that really contribute to some of the insulin changes and obviously glucose being terrible. So to me keto is a no brainer for most cancers, the ones that still depend on glucose. So eat that way, also, hyperbaric oxygen therapy. Dr. Don D’Agostino, out of University of Southern Florida has been great research on this, and a lot of doctors are still very opposed, because prevailing idea is, well, cancer, you have, you know, one of the hallmarks of cancer is angiogenesis, where it creates your body creates more blood vessels to feed the cancer tumors, and the idea of hyperbaric oxygen therapy actually adds more oxygen and could promote more blood vessels being built to supply your cancer tumor. But actuality, you know, is uncovered and what’s been my personal experience is that it helps address that hypoxia, which is also a hallmark of cancer. And getting this oxygen to your healthy cells is profoundly beneficial. One thing you can get out if
Brad Jones 44:21
cancer so don’t really want the oxygen anyway.
Maggie Jones 44:25
Especially interesting, but the biggest warning I’ve gotten from my medical professionals on doing hyperbaric oxygen therapy is that it could would lower my blood glucose too much. And obviously, from a cancer treatment perspective from blocking this glucose, you really do want to lower your triggers and have less available for the cancer. But what I noticed wearing a continuous glucose monitor is for me personally, my glucose actually spikes enormously during the chamber, but then plummets as soon as I get out. So this is another interesting thing that we just don’t know about. But all these treatments that we’re talking about and several of them You know, haven’t been researched heavily but worked for me like sauna therapy, and many that have been researched heavily like off label drugs metformin and been dissolved a torva statin doxycycline have had years of research showing that they kind of create the environment of ketogenic diet, and they, the private cancer cells have these nutrients that they want. Yeah, and really create that keto feeling. And with this, your metabolism improves. And for my personal experience, I lost over 50 pounds in the first six months of since my diagnosis, and my doctors didn’t care because they just assumed it was ataxia, the muscle wasting that’s associated with cancer and responsible for most of the deaths, and they’re expecting me to die anyway. But I got a DX, a scan, showing it was all just fat loss. My body was overcoming all these years of i thought i healthy but eating the standard American diet, which for me was low fat dairy it was lean vegetables, lean meats, no fat, yeah, whole grains. And these things I know now are not good for my body. Ah, yeah.
Brad Jones 46:07
Yeah, I was gonna just say To sum up, it says like, we kind of hear this from people at times, it’s like, this idea of starving the cancer, cancers want glucose. If you can go on a ketogenic diet and just do other things, that’s all about just trying to get your blood sugar down and keep your you know, keep your cancer from getting the nutrients that it wants. Your other cells can live off of the ketones, because that’s a different way of you know, we could get into that against but But yeah, just this idea of starve the cancer, that’s like the simplest way to sort of think of it as your cancer needs sugar. Try not to eat sugar.
Maggie Jones 46:43
Yeah, it’s a very simplified perspective, but one that can guide you. Yeah. And real quickly, just to touch on what Brad was talking about with ketones. And why the ketogenic diet has been so important to me, is we’ve been focusing on fermentation versus oxidative phosphorylation for the creation of energy, but your healthy cells because humans have this metabolic flexibility, we can survive long periods without food or without carbohydrates, because we can also use our fat to create ketone bodies, which can then be used by energy. And the big argument is that cancer cells can adapt to use ketone bodies, also a very small percentage of them. But my gosh, if you’ve bought yourself years and years, that gives you time to find other treatments, other therapies that work for you for maybe science to come up with a cure someday. Yeah, but these ketones and feeding your body something that’s going to make it healthy, your healthy cells getting stronger and stronger, while your cancer cells get weaker, just improve the efficacy of different conventional treatments like chemotherapy.
Brad Jones 47:41
Yeah, like so when we talked to Dr. Adrienne Shaq, one of the things that she really talked about with the ketogenic diet was that when your body sort of goes into a kind of like a hibernation mode, most of your normal cells do when you’re when you’re fasting or when you’re on a ketogenic diet. And what that does is your normal cells get protected from let’s say, radiation or chemotherapy. However, cancer cells don’t go into this hibernating protective type mode. They’re constantly scavenging for more resources trying to grow as fast as they can. And what that does is it kind of opens them up to take the medication, the radiation or the chemotherapy. So it’s kind of like this little double whammy this ketogenic or for fasting when you do that to your body, and it often makes those kinds of therapies more effective. So you can go either at a lower dosage, or, you know, or just, you know, the doses that you have is going to take an even bigger punch.
Robert Lufkin 48:38
Yeah, it’s amazing the transformation that just the idea of ketosis has undergone in the last 10 years. I mean, many doctors to this day still conflate ketosis with ketoacidosis, which is a dangerous condition. And, and fortunately, that’s changing, and there’s growing evidence to show that ketosis may be even the optimal normal state that we’re in. It’s like, we don’t eat all the time. ketosis is the way you know, historically, we were, and it’s a better better way to be. But so going back to this, this ketogenic diet, the advantages for the cancer would one be the the lower glucose, but you just eliminated glucose spikes, right and going on, surviving on ketones then, but there’s still glucose present there, I guess, in our body, but it’s just lower right?
Maggie Jones 49:38
Yeah, our bodies can do what’s called, you know, as you know, gluconeogenesis, which it creates its own glucose in the liver. And yeah, some people argue that your brain needs glucose to function. We know that’s not true. The brain loves ketones, but your body is always going to keep this baseline level of, of glucose in the blood, but you can lower that and a lot of the research out of Dr. Seyfried this lab shows that the proportion of blood sugar, blood glucose to your blood ketones is what’s the most important thing. So you’ll you don’t have to go into what the call was hyperglycemia you can have healthy levels mine when I’m healthiest running around 80 micromoles per, or No, I guess that’s
Unknown Speaker 50:21
anyway. Yeah. 7080 I think yeah.
Maggie Jones 50:25
And my glucose can go as high as you know, or five micromoles per liter. And it’s that ratio, that’s the important thing is not necessarily that you need super high ketones or super low blood sugar. Just make it better than it was before.
Brad Jones 50:40
Yeah, it seems that Yeah. You know, we’ve talked to several, you know, people that are kind of going through this process, and that it’s a little different for everyone, right. I mean, actually, so one of the experts we talked to was Miriam columbium, who’s a dietitian. And that was, you know, we were like, well, what’s the you know, what’s the Yeah. Marian was fantastic interview is so great talking with her. But yeah, so I mean, we really tried to, you know, like, nail her down, like, well, what’s the magic number right? And she’s like, it is just all over the place. She’s like, some people it’s, you know, it’s higher, some they’ll have you know, can only get their glucose down so much. So it’s she’s like it just irresponsible for me to say like, shoot for, you know, under this number. So,
Maggie Jones 51:26
and mitigation can impact that steroids are very common prescription for palliative cancer care, and those will
Unknown Speaker 51:32
just skyrocket your blood sugar too many factors.
Robert Lufkin 51:35
Sure. And, and probably another effect I would imagine is going on the ketogenic diet, like you say, Brad, you flip that metabolic switch to, to, you know, suppress mTOR, activate ANP kinase, all these survival genes that protect the body and, and everything, decrease inflammation, decrease insulin resistance, all these all these positive things, in addition to lowering glucose and raising the ketones, it’s just a whole.
Brad Jones 52:06
One of the things I mean, I count myself very lucky to not have had cancer, although, in all honesty, there probably is some cancer floating around in my body somewhere. We almost all have it. But, uh, oh my gosh, I
Maggie Jones 52:20
lost my train of thought. All the things that you do for your longevity?
Unknown Speaker 52:24
Um, you Yeah, sorry, I just blanked there. Or it’s been
Robert Lufkin 52:29
all been. Yeah, yeah, all of these things help. Lower cancer risk, even for those of us who haven’t had their cancers yet, like you say, everybody, we all it’s believed that we all have small cancers all the time, and that they’re just handled by our immune system, as well.
Maggie Jones 52:45
And just emphasize no diet is a cure for cancer. But we’ve been very lucky to also talk with two case study survivors are really thrivers who have been diagnosed with stage four cancer one with Pablo Kelly in the UK who had glioblastoma, which we all know that the survival rate for that is under a year. He never did conventional therapy. He focused on fasting ketogenic diet and some breath work. And he’s now had seven years of life. He got married, he had a child, it’s just such a different life. The other was thrown out Ronica from New Zealand, her case was published about four years ago, where she has a sage fourth, I’m Noma, again less the year to live. But she was very late in her pregnancy and was unable to do chemotherapy. She chose instead to have her child and was just fascinating. The ketogenic diet, she’s now four years cancer free, she’s watched her baby grow up. So there are a never ever recommend not doing chemotherapy. But for those who have reasons why they can’t. There can also be benefits there.
Brad Jones 53:43
And I mean, in the main, the main point that we want to get across in our documentary is that these these things deserve more research. Right? You can’t you know, there’s more and more anecdotal evidence popping in this. This is anecdotal evidence, I understand it’s not a double blind trial. One person. Yeah. Yeah. But it’s, it’s so compelling. We need to put more resources into it more time, more money, more researchers, even if the you know, it’s not going to make a fortune for pharmaceutical company, it’s gonna save lives. And that’s really the most important thing.
Robert Lufkin 54:18
And before we move on to your documentary, I just want to hit a couple a couple points to close that. You mentioned some supplements like Metformin for ANP kinase and how about rapamycin for mTOR inhibition? Was that considered at all
Maggie Jones 54:34
I kind of my fasting habits mostly to work with the mTOR but I know that’s
Unknown Speaker 54:39
popular out there. People are doing more popular lately. You know.
Brad Jones 54:46
I take reserve resveratrol
Unknown Speaker 54:49
for this sirtuins.
Maggie Jones 54:51
Surprisingly, my blood sugar almost as dramatically as Metformin I take 2000 milligrams of metformin to this day, but Berberine will take me down another Yeah, 20
Robert Lufkin 55:01
similar, similar things there. Now, having said all this, we have these these competing theories, that appears that there’s a lot of evidence that metabolic, the metabolic basis may be causal, maybe driving this. But but even if it’s not even if they overlap and a certain percentage, I have to ask the question, the therapy, you’ve recommended for this metabolic therapy, this metabolic therapy, it’s not like you’re saying stop the recommended therapy for that. And you’re saying it doesn’t decrease the effectiveness of the recommended therapy and probably helps it and it doesn’t cost anything and makes you healthier? Why, why? Why? I mean, why isn’t this embrace more I understand the perverse incentives of finances, and they’re no drug companies behind this. And other than, you know, people like us doing these podcasts and things and shows and you know, movies like this, why isn’t a message getting out there more like, What harm could it do to put people on ketogenic diets or, or lower their glucose? On their the treatment? I mean, is there evidence that this is harmful somehow, or what? Why isn’t it getting out there more? What’s the pushback that you’ve encountered? The
Maggie Jones 56:24
one thing that I know a lot of physicians are concerned about is Texia. Again, that muscle wasting that’s associated with cancer deaths, I think it’s something like 70 to 80% of cancers. That’s the cause of death. But actually, recent research has proved that a ketogenic diet actually prevents Texia. Then there’s additional research out of Dr. Valter Longo, his lab in USC that these treatments like a ketogenic diet, and especially fasting, reduce the side effects of your conventional therapy. Not only are you getting more impactful dose of radiation or chemotherapy, but you’re also feeling better and more healthy. And I’ve had tons of clients myself and talk to dozens of people who all had this exact experience. You had that experience. Oh my gosh, yeah. Okay, if you can get this out. But I’ve had two rounds of brain radiation surgery, each for two different tumors, both of the same hospital, the first one at the end of 2018. I was so sick.
Brad Jones 57:18
I can’t even say that before she did any of her metabolic journey really,
Maggie Jones 57:22
I was doing a little bit I was just starting. But I still spent three weeks on the couch, vomiting, sweating, I very meticulous my number keeping an average of 400 to 500 calories a day. I was just sick. The second round of stereotactic brain radiation was six months later, same hospital two tumors knew and I had it on a Friday, I walked home from the hospital because I felt great. And I was back at work the next Monday. I can’t even tell you how dramatic these experiences were. And the big difference was a second round. I fasted water fasted for three days beforehand. And that was the only difference the same people doing it the same hospital. My Express has been dramatic. Yeah. Yeah, the big reason I think to answer your question of widen the snow is just fear. I mean, it’s so hard for physicians, you probably know to recommend anything other than the standard of care. Yeah.
Brad Jones 58:12
Well, yeah, I mean, I think that if you start at the top, it’s like, well, it’s not proven science, right? It hasn’t been FDA approved. So doctors can’t recommend it, then you go down one level, the patients and patients are like, well, if my doctor didn’t tell me about it, why should I, you know, like, put any faith in this? And then then there you go, you know, it’s like, if you don’t go above the doctors, it’s like, well, there’s no money to be made. So there’s no one pushing to the taxpayers. But, you know, I think I’ve hit that one pretty hard.
Maggie Jones 58:42
Brad Jones 58:43
Yeah, it’s just the system operating the way it’s designed. And I think that we’re gonna really need a government, you know, or just a giant philanthropist to sort of step up and, you know, some some research foundations he’s made to, you know, step up and, and help get these proven because the, there’s just, it’s just, it’s really just sad, like, you know, like, we’re just not even looking into this more.
Maggie Jones 59:09
I would even disagree, I would say the grassroots movement that we’re doing that you’re doing on your podcast that all these officers we talked about are doing is spreading the word. And that’s a big part of the reason we’re making this documentary is because some of the things we’re talking about are complex or science based, but everybody gets cancer. Everyone’s life is impacted, we need to make it simple. We need to empower people to look into what’s been developed that a doctor may not even know about. They’re well meaning doctors. And I think it’s that individual. Empowerment is what’s going to change when people can take control of their own health and realize that just because somebody had a lab coat doesn’t mean they’re the expert on what’s happening in the other person’s body. That’s
Robert Lufkin 59:50
absolutely and and, yeah, it is the system. I don’t think the people willingly want to harm people or withhold information. It’s just that there busy and they get paid to do one thing, they don’t get paid to do something else. And you know, all sorts of factors. It’s very, very complex. But let’s talk about let’s talk about your movie. I’m so excited about that you have all the all the greatest minds and people, all the all the books, we’ve been holding up all those people are in your movie, they’re going to be talking, you’re interviewing them and hearing their point of view on this really important topic of what you were obviously knew a lot about, about this space before you started thinking the movie. What did you learn from making the movie that you didn’t know beforehand? Oh, my God, the whole process? Are we just talk to you? I don’t. Okay.
Brad Jones 1:00:45
I, I think that Maggie should tell her story of how what she tried to do after she sort of gained, you know, gained sort of a grasp on her cancer and was trying to help other people.
Maggie Jones 1:00:58
Just seeing the success in my own body, I started a blog, which originally wasn’t intended to update our friends and family about my condition, my therapy is, and slowly developed into a repository of all the research I was doing and the different treatments and became really popular with other people who felt empowered, and were seeking their own metabolic approach. And from there, I was helping a few people, I started a social media presence where it was overwhelming, actually, the people who came to me probably averaging four to five per day, just Maggie cure my cancer, what can I do. And then I trained as a nutritionist, so that I could legally sit down help people develop their meal plans, understand what’s important for them. And I learned so much working with others, and how different each person’s body is that you can’t necessarily follow one person’s diet and have it work for you. But learning how that you can use the the signals of your own body to optimize. But that was too much. I can’t, I can’t help everybody one on one. And I had some really powerful experiences where it was just too technical for people to understand, especially the way I explained things very poorly, as you’ve learned on this podcast with my brain damage and all that. But I’m so lucky that I have a filmmaker husband, who was learning about this through my research and realized that he could put it into a more digestible actionable format through this documentary.
Brad Jones 1:02:19
Well, I mean, I think you give me a little too much credit there. I mean, this is a this is a joint effort here. Yeah, I mean, but yeah, she left out in between there, she started writing a book, which I think is probably going to be coming out later this year, maybe next year. And yeah, the counseling was it was starting to like kind of really hurt her emotionally. I couldn’t think she would, you know, I get off the phone with like somebody. And then she’d have like three more emails in her inbox. And it was just for someone who had actually already gone through this emotionally. I could just see it taking the toll on her and, and but she still wanted to help people. She wanted to get this idea out there. And I was like, yeah, why don’t we see if we can. And at that point, we knew Travis and we had met Dr. Seyfried at a convention. And we were like, Why don’t we reach out to them, see if they’ll be, you know, down to do a documentary? And we’re so thankful that they both said yes. And kind of once we got those two arrows in our in our quiver, there was sort of like a nice little domino run of much a bunch of other great great people saying yes to us, and we’re so thankful that they did. And,
Maggie Jones 1:03:27
again, our perspective is just as reporters, I mean, I have an incredible story that I’m very grateful for, but it’s just one person. And so our goal is just to report on the Polish peer reviewed research that’s out there, maybe a few vignettes, 100 different cancer patients who’ve had similar experiences to mine. But really what drove this for me, what made me so supportive of Brad’s idea to make the documentary are the sad stories I heard from people who didn’t believe that these treatments were real. I told the story before but I was contacted by a nutritionist in Scandinavia, whose brother was diagnosed with glioblastoma in his early 30s. And, you know, again, less than one year survival, but she knew she knew the impact of the ketogenic diet could have because it’s been studied the most for GBM. There’s almost no question. And he didn’t believe her because his doctor never told him about it. And so she enlisted my help to try to convince him. But my perspective is always to doubt in the science and nitty gritty. And I knew that through bad size, he’d had the ability to make this information digestible, palatable, actionable, and it would have saved his life. But unfortunately, he decided not to procure this diet, and he died within a couple of months, and I’m still in touch with a sister. I want to make this documentary partly dedicated to him. But there are so many out there who have the same story. I had a friend who was diagnosed with breast cancer. She was younger than I was, she was diagnosed a year after me, and she passed last year, because her doctor never told us about it. And it’s just this perspective that people have that if I don’t hear it from my doctor, it can’t be real. And your doctors are telling you everything that’s real, but there’s more They can’t be absorbed into the standard of care yet. But that doesn’t mean that people don’t deserve access to it, or knowledge of it. And then if they decide not to do it, that’s fine. Just make an informed choice with all the options available to you. Yeah.
Brad Jones 1:05:13
Yeah, main thrust of the documentary is just that, hey, there’s more stuff out there that we just we just need to keep researching. And, and we push a little hard on the fact that the somatic mutation theory is still just a theory. It’s not, it’s not proven. It’s not fact. So
Robert Lufkin 1:05:29
yeah, it’s so important to get that information out there. So people, at least they’re aware of it, and then they can make a choice and the doctors and the doctors too. So where are you with the movie? When’s it coming out? What, what’s happening,
Brad Jones 1:05:42
you have completed all of our interviews. And then, so I’m just everyday just working on cutting it, you know, just, you know, got it all sort of, oh, you could just sort of think of it in little piles of basically based on topics. And so I’m just putting, you know, taking those little jigsaw puzzles and putting them together into something that sort of flows into a narrative. So and,
Maggie Jones 1:06:05
gosh, guys, it’s about cancer and all these great treatments and therapies. But holy smokes, it’s such a great story to have just the evolution of science from 100 years ago, where we had these answers to when they were abandoned. The great scientist who brought it back, I’m not featured in the movie, except as a survivor, even though my story I know, inspired it, the real hero of the story, are these scientists doing great work and letting their understanding of the human body evolve. And we’re not saying that what we’re reporting on right now is the actual final fact, it’s always going to develop and we’re just trying to encourage that development of admitting that maybe this whole theory was wrong. Let’s try the next thing and get closer and closer to a cure.
Robert Lufkin 1:06:44
Yeah, yeah, that’s the best that’s the best we can do and and I’d like to include in here a link that that will allow people to support your Indiegogo campaign for the film and also the private link to get the discount on the premiere tickets too. I’ll put that in there in the show notes below as well so they can they can support the film and then get get early access as well with as soon as the premiere is out. And then also what what’s the best way to to follow you on social media we’re going to put everything in the show notes. So we’ll have the links there but any particularly you want to read out to people who are on audio consuming this with audio only.
Brad Jones 1:07:27
Well, I was gonna say YouTube actually we were making a movie so that’s kind of where most of the you know sort of flashy content comes out is on YouTube, some great clips from our experts. Yeah, every person that’s in the documentary right now we have at least one clip of them up on YouTube so you can go there and and look at sort of, you know, a feel for how the documentary will be. And then we’re on all social media but I think what Instagrams kind of the biggest
Maggie Jones 1:07:55
Facebook those are all under cancer revolution doc and then we have the Twitter where the username is cancer evolves, because there’s for too long we haven’t done Tik Tok
Robert Lufkin 1:08:10
yet my daughter’s to help you with that Thanks Thanks so much Brad and Maggie for spending this hour with you and getting getting to know you better and also the finding out the about the amazing work you’re doing in this this upcoming documentary. It’s so exciting. I can’t wait to get a bunch of friends together and go see it. So thanks. Thanks again for the work you’re doing. Yeah,
Brad Jones 1:08:37
thank you so much for having us and and thanks to yourself too for helping to shine a light on this.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:44
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